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Linus Explains Linux Trademark Issues

Posted by CmdrTaco on Wed Jan 19, 2000 08:55 AM
from the two-ounces-of-clarification dept.
Normally I avoid posting direct comments from mailing lists here, but since Linus posted this on Kernel-dev and says that he hopes Slashdot picks it up, I think that's permission. This message addresses the recent rumors that have been floating around about Linus' lawyers going after domain squatters abusing the Linux Trademark. It's an interesting issue, and one that I'm sure will divide you guys: we've always hated it when domain names are taken from people by others, but this is our beloved Linux Trademark.

The following was written by Linus Torvalds and posted to kernel-dev

I've been getting tons of email about the trademark thing due to the
action of stopping the auctioning off of linux-related names, so instead
of just answering individually (which was how I started out), I'll just
send out a more generic email. And hope that slashdot etc pick it up so
that enough people will be reassured or at least understand the issues.

And hey, you may not end up agreeing with me, but with the transmeta
announcement tomorrow I won't have much time to argue about it until next
week ;)

Basically, the rules are fairly simple, and there really are just a few
simple basic issues involved:

- I (and obviously a lot of other people) do not want to have "Linux" as
a name associated with unacceptable (or borderline) behaviour, and it's
important that "Linux" doesn't get a name of being associated with
scams, cybersquatting, etc etc. I'd personally hate that, for rather
obvious reasons. I _like_ being proud of Linux, and what has been
achieved. I'd rather not have to apologize for it..

- Trademark law requires that the trademark owner police the use of the
trademark (unlike, for example, copyright law, where the copyright
owner is the copyright owner, always is, and always will be unless he
willingly relinquishes ownership, and even THEN he ends up having
rights).

This is nasty, because it means, for example, that a trademark owner
has to be shown as caring about even small infringements, because
otherwise the really bad guys can use as their defense that "hey, we
may have misused it, but look at those other cases that they didn't go
after, they obviously don't care.."

- Even with things that aren't scams or something like that, VALID uses
of "Linux" may be bad if they mean that other valid uses of "Linux" are
blocked.

Those are the kind of ground rules, I think everybody can pretty much
agree with them..

What the above leads to is

- I'm required to ask people to acknowledge the trademark. When you use
the term "Linux" in official marketing literature etc, you should
acknowledge it as a trademark owned by me. Not because I love seeing my
name in print, but simply because of the "policing" issue (#2) above.

(And no, that does NOT mean that you have to add that to normal,
everyday use of the term. Common sense rules the day, think of the
situations where you see the silly "xxxx is a trademark of yyyy", and
realize that yyyy may not really care except the legal issues force
them to ;)

- _Intent_ matters. It matters a lot.

If your intent is to use the word "linux" as part of a real Linux
project, that doesn't mean that you automatically absolutely have to
get permission from me. That's the LAST thing I want. I want "Linux" to
be as free as possible as a term, and the real reason for having a
trademark in the first place was to _protect_ it rather than use it as
some kind of legalistic enforcement thing.

But, for example, if your intent is to register "mylinux.com" (made up
example, I don't know if it is registered or not) only in the hopes of
selling the domain name for mucho dinero later, then that kind of
intent is not something I (or anybody else, I think) would find really
acceptable, because now the use of "linux" in this case has really been
a question of blocking somebody ELSE from using the term and using it
to get money.

This is where the cybersquatting laws come in, for example, allowing
the use of a trademark as a way to make sure that such squatting
activity does NOT happen.

- Being "specific" is _good_. Being specific largely avoids the problem
of many people/organizations wanting the same name. We had an example
long ago of somebody who would have wanted to register "Linux Expert"
as a servicemark, yet obviously that is a pretty generic term. Not
good, if it means that there will be confusion about who owns the term.

In contrast (to give some tangible examples), something like "VA Linux"
or "Red Hat Linux" oviously isn't a generic term: it's a very
_targeted_ term for something very specific. Those kinds of names do
not detract from other peoples ability to call _their_ Linux company
something else.

- Finally, you have to judge the "officialdom" and the importance of
the business side of your usage. Not because I or anybody else
really cares all that much, but more because of the "pain factor" if
the name is asked for by somebody else.

Basically, ask yourself the question: "What if somebody else had a
project, and happened to chose the same name for his project as I have
for mine, how strong a protection do I want for MY version of the
project?"

Also, ask yourself: "Would anybody ever have reason to question the
name, and do I need to make provisions for protecting this particular
instance of it" (and note that "anybody" may not be me as the trademark
owner myself, but it may be a competitor who wants to make life
uncomfortable for you)

If you decide that you want some official protection from the mark,
that probably means that you want to own your own version of the
trademark, ie a "service mark" or a "combination mark". There are
obvious cases where such a thing is wanted - you should not be
surprised to hear that various Linux companies own their own
combination marks, or have at the very least gotten that ownership
verbally approved by me pending getting the paperwork done.

So basically, in case the trademark issue comes up, you should make your
own judgement. If you read and understood the above, you know pretty much
what my motivation is - I hate the paperwork, and I think all of this is
frankly a waste of my time, but I need to do it so that in the future I
don't end up being in a position I like even less.

And I'm _not_ out to screw anybody. In order to cover the costs of
paperwork and the costs of just _tracking_ the trademark issues (and to
really make it a legally binding contract in the first place), if you end
up going the whole nine yards and think you need your own trademark
protection, there is a rather nominal fee(*) associated with combination
mark paperwork etc. That money actually goes to the Linux International
trademark fund, so it's not me scalping people if anybody really thought
that that might be the case ;)

I hope people understand what happened, and why it happened, and why it
really hasn't changed anything that we had to assert the trademark issue
publically for the first time this week. And I hope people feel more
comfortable about it.

And finally - I hope that people who decide due to this that what they
really want is trademark protection for their own Linux trademark, that
they could just wait a week or two, or contact maddog at Linux
International rather than me. We're finally getting the shroud of secrecy
lifted from transmeta (hey, we'll have a real web-site and zdtv is
supposed to webcast the announcement tomorrow), and I'd rather worry about
trademarks _next_ week.

Ok?

Linus

(*) "Nominal fee". What an ugly sentence. It's one of those things that
implies that if you have to ask, you can't afford it. In reality, it's
more a thing where both intent and the size of the project will make a
difference - and quite frankly it's also a way to slightly discourage
people who aren't really serious about it in the first place.

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  • If only he could sensor LinuxOne by bak6926 (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @03:59AM
  • What are the different marks? by stx23 (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:01AM
  • Interesting, informative. by dkh2 (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:02AM
  • Thank You (TM) (Score:4)

    by SEWilco (27983) on Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:03AM (#1359133) Homepage Journal
  • LinuxLover.com???? by goader (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:06AM
  • I agree. (Score:3)

    by kwsNI (133721) on Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:07AM (#1359138) Homepage
    I really have to agree with what he's doing. Being in-charge of the Linux trademark has to be a HUGE job. I think a lot of people, /.ers and all, really take advantage of Linux's good name. How many times have you gone to a web page just because the name of it matched something close to what you were looking for only to find it was completely off topic. Linus has the right to keep Linux domains on topic and I, for one, am glad he's doing this.

    kwsNI
  • It's always good... by benasdf (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:09AM
  • Where's the fun? by SLOfuse (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:09AM
  • by dougman (908) on Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:12AM (#1359144)

    1) In general, I agree with Linus' statements.

    2) It's unfortunate that protecting one's trademark inevitably forces (per current law) the trademark holder to go to great lengths (read: expense) to protect the trademark. Personally, I can't see why the owner of a registered trademark shouldn't be allowed to selectively decide who may or may not use the trademark for their own pursuits. To force the owner to treat everyone equally seems kind of odd IMHO.

    3) As a small (hopefully not for long) business owner myself, I've just filed a few trademark applications and I must say, the process isn't so bad, but it's prohibitively expensive, especially the issue of trademark searches. As a free bonus, let me mention a site I found where you can do free searches of the US trademark and service mark databases - an INVALUABLE utility for those without deep pockets interested in this sort of thing: Marksonline [marksonline.com]

  • by dustpuppy (5260) on Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:13AM (#1359145) Homepage
    I used to run (well I guess I still do) a Calvin & Hobbes fan site which I started way back in 1994. Back then, Universal Press Syndicate (the owners of the rights to Calvin & Hobbes) went on a campaign to close every C&H fan site on the web.

    Basically the reason behind their actions was the same as Linus' - to protect their trademark, they had to take action against any possible infringment of their copyright/trademark.

    In the end, Universal Press Syndicate stopped pursuing fan sites for a number of reasons that one can only speculate - but I have always suspected that one of them was that there was no way that they could close sites faster than they were appearing.

    Having read Linus' explanation, I have two observations:

    • First, it's great that Linus has taken the time to explain the situation - Universal Press Syndicate merely shot threatening lawyer letters to webmasters.
    • Second, will Linus' attempt to defend his trademark ultimately prove futile as more and more sites/companies/people start using the word Linux - I'm assuming that there is a strong possibility that the illegitimate use of the trademark Linux will outstrip Linus' ability to control it.

  • Re:LinuxLover.com???? by Ravenfeather (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:14AM
  • Might be good, might be a dud, by Nodatadj (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:15AM
  • by anonymous loser (58627) on Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:17AM (#1359148)
    Has everyone seen www.microsfot.com [microsfot.com]?
  • Re:Trademark protection organization by Floris (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:18AM
  • Re:Trademark law by SPorter (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:19AM
  • by Our Man In Redmond (63094) on Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:20AM (#1359152)
    Under US trademark and copyright laws, if you own a trademark you have to defend every misuse of your product you find. Otherwise, your trademark can become genericized. Here's a glaringly simplified example:

    Say I make a product called OMIR's Covert Coke, "the drink for infiltrating and subverting large software companies." It becomes a modest success on campus. Microsoft's legal team thinks it's funny so they don't do anything about it. Coca-Cola's lawyers say we're too small to worry about so they don't bother us either.

    Now somebody like R. J. Reynolds makes a cola they call "Coke-A-Rama." Coca-Cola doesn't like their name being associated with a cigarette company, so they try to issue an injunction against RJR making and selling the product under that name. RJR's lawyers can argue to invalidate the trademark on the grounds that, since Coca-Cola knew about OMIR's Covert Coke and didn't do anything about it, they relinquished the rights to the "Coke" trademark. And they would have a very good chance of winning.

    Considering how much money Coca-Cola makes off of selling T-shirts, refrigerator magnets, windbreakers and the like with their "Coke" trademark on them, they aren't going to let this happen. It means a lot of money to them.

    This leads to things like companies writing in to magazines to inform them that "we enjoyed your article on why photocopiers should be banned, but we wanted to remind you that the word 'Xerox' is a trademark for our particular brand of photocopier and should not be used as a generic synonym for the verb 'to photocopy.'"

    Linus is in the same position. In order to defend the Linux trademark, he has to "crack the whip," so to speak. My wife used to have to do this for a company she worked for. It's annoying and time-consuming, but if Linus ever lost the trademark and with it his ability to veto uses of it, he would be sorry he hadn't (probably every time he heard it used for something he wished it wasn't).
    --
  • oh, man by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:21AM
  • Re:Linus Cannot "Censor" by warghoul (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:22AM
  • futile, indeed by The Queen (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:25AM
  • Re:Might be good, might be a dud, by CYberPhreak (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:26AM
  • by orcrist (16312) on Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:27AM (#1359158)
    Somebody moderate Linus up a couple of karma points. It's an interesting and informative piece.

    Are you kidding? If Linux ever decided to post personally on Slashdot (comments as opposed to this article posted by proxy) he could probably do nothing but troll all day long, and

    1. Have his automatic +1 bonus within a couple of hours, surpassing Signal 11 by the end of the day; and

    2. Prevent any other people from getting marked up; and

    3. Probably even prevent trolls from getting marked down, with the exception of trolls responding to him ;-)

    Chris
  • This is just buisness as usual. by Munky_v2 (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:28AM
  • I meant Linus not Linux!!! by orcrist (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:29AM
  • Reassuring, but (Score:4)

    by Jon Peterson (1443) <`gro.tfirdwons' `ta' `noj'> on Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:29AM (#1359161) Homepage
    "but this is our beloved Linux Trademark. " (quote from /. editor, not Linus)

    Speak for yourself. No trademark is beloved as far as I'm concerned, and I think this says something about the community. People are starting to care a whole lot more about names and labels, and I think it is a shame.

    Do you think the Gnu people would be doing the same thing? I notice that www.perlprogrammer.com is also 'squatted'. I don't hear Larry Wall getting the lawyers in. Or O'Reilly, for that matter. Gee, maybe Perl will get a really bad name - oh, but then with no Perl IPO's, that won't be hurting any back pockets too much, will it....

    Sure, I can sympathise with Linus feeling miffed at a bunch of yobs, but that doesn't mean we should all cheer and wave flags. Linus happens to be able to call in the lawyers. Most people who make free software what it is can't do that and never have been able to. That hasn't really hurt free software much. If Linus wants to get legal so that he feels better, I think that's fine, if he can afford it.

    But if he starts claiming that he's doing it for the good of the community*, I'm not going to be happy, because I'm part of that community and it does me no good. And if other people start claiming that he's doing it for the good of the communtiy, I'll get really pissed off. Especially if those people own shares in Linux companies.

    For me, it's a community of people, and to a lesser extend a community of software. When it starts to be a community of 'OS friendly companies' or 'Trademark owners' or 'Approved cool people as voted by the /. mob' then I'll wave good bye to the lot of it.

    I've got more hobbies and interests than programming and computers. If people want to make it all about trademarks and IPO's and what have you I'll spend more time sailing and cooking, and less time writing free software. No big deal. Either that or I'll go back to the world of Windows shareware, which is a whole lot less bitchy and is starting to produce better software.


    *I'm not suggesting that he is, BTW.
  • mylinux.com by dlc (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:30AM
  • linuxchick.com by acb (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:31AM
  • Cybersquatting laws require proof of bad faith by rcade (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:32AM
  • Re:futile, indeed by lar3ry (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:33AM
  • Re:I agree. by leitchn (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:34AM
  • by TheCarp (96830) <sjc.carpanet@net> on Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:34AM (#1359168) Homepage
    um...sorry but the Americain Heritage Dictionary
    disagrees with you:

    censor (snsr)
    n.

    1.A person authorized to examine books, films, or other material and to remove or suppress what is considered morally, politically, or otherwise objectionable.

    2.An official, as in the armed forces, who examines personal mail and official dispatches to remove information considered secret or a risk to security.

    3.One that condemns or censures.

    4.One of two officials in ancient Rome responsible for taking the public census andsupervising public behavior and morals.

    5.Psychology. The agent in the unconscious that is responsible for censorship.

    ---
    The obvious one I am asserting here is #1.
    There is no mention of WHO "Authorizes" a person.
    USUALLY it is used in terms of a "Government"
    action.

    It should be noted that even in common usage,
    employees of Television broadcasting stations
    who decide what content has to be edited from
    movies (which I find ruins the whole movie and
    is the reason I refuse to watch movies on TV)
    are called "Censors".

    However, your statment that it can only be applied
    to government action (as if the government is the
    only sickening band of authoritarians around) is
    a common assertation.
  • Transmeta Website.. by legoboy (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:35AM
  • secrecy lifted from transmeta by eliasj (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:36AM
  • Nominal Fee by !IH (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:37AM
  • Re:futile, indeed by Augie De Blieck Jr. (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:38AM
  • Re:Where's the fun? by TheBigA (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:38AM
  • Re:futile, indeed by orcrist (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:38AM
  • It's Ugly, but it's True. :-( by farrellj (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:39AM
  • Re:What a bunch of sheep by Robert Wilde (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:39AM
  • Re:At least Linus explained the situation! by Ralph Wiggam (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:39AM
  • Kudos to Linus... by pb (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:40AM
  • I knew the bride when she used to rock and roll. by boojum_uc (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:41AM
  • Just like Disney by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:42AM
  • Re:Trademark law by Relforn (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:42AM
  • Re:LinuxLover.com???? by M. Piedlourd (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:43AM
  • Re:Couldn't agree more; some additional thoughts by Kaa (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:44AM
  • by jquiroga (94119) on Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:46AM (#1359188)
    In contrast (to give some tangible examples), something like "VA Linux" or "Red Hat Linux" oviously isn't a generic term: it's a very _targeted_ term for something very specific. Those kinds of names do not detract from other peoples ability to call _their_ Linux company something else.

    I'm confused. If Linus believes this, I don't know why he let VA Linux choose 'LNUX' as their NASDAQ ticker symbol. They should have chosen perhaps 'VALX', and not be too general. After all, aren't NASDAQ symbols just like domain names?

    In my opinion, Red Hat did the right thing with 'RHAT'

  • Could be read differently... by JamesKPolk (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:47AM
  • I think you misspelled "Lay The Smack Down Upon". by M-2 (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:47AM
  • Re:futile, indeed by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:49AM
  • Re:It's always good... by cruise (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:49AM
  • Re:Unfortunately, he's right by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:50AM
  • Flamebait?!??? Get a clue, moderator! by Ravenfeather (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:50AM
  • Re:Unfortunately, he's right by Relforn (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:52AM
  • Re:Speaking of trademarks and linux... by Tet (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:53AM
  • Re:At least Linus explained the situation! by larien (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:53AM
  • Re:Reassuring, but by grumpy_geek (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:54AM
  • Re:What a bunch of sheep by aturley (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:54AM
  • Let law determine what's "acceptable" by aozilla (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:55AM
  • Re:Thank You (TM) by angelo (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:56AM
  • by sanderb (9539) on Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:56AM (#1359205) Homepage
    No opinion but a question.

    Wasn't there like this dispute over www.linux.com. That Fred van Kempen (was it him, some Dutch guy?) eventually sold this domain for a lot of money. Shouldn't Linus have been policing there, as he explains if he did not do it in that case about what other domain could he possibly complain??

    confused...
  • Re:What a bunch of sheep by teraflop user (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:56AM
  • Remember, Linus NEVER started any of this by BitMan (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:57AM
  • Re:mylinux.com by gmhowell (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:57AM
  • Down boy, Down! (Score:4)

    by nevets (39138) on Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:59AM (#1359209) Homepage Journal
    Speak for yourself. No trademark is beloved as far as I'm concerned, and I think this says something about the community. People are starting to care a whole lot more about names and labels, and I think it is a shame.

    As Linux goes from a hobby to Business (which it already has) you do need to be concerned about names and labels. If corporations were able to start abusing the Linux trademark then those that do Linux as a hobby may have more trouble. Say if you are serious about a hobby and want to do your own web site, but it was squatted!

    Do you think the Gnu people would be doing the same thing?

    Well I can't speek for the FSF, but I do think they would if you started abusing the GNU label. RMS still thinks it should be called GNU/Linux. Talk about being concerned about labels. I did like the mention of calling it Linux/GNU so it doesn't sound like Linux is part of GNU.
    As for Mr. Wall, well, he's a nut anyway (in a good way! ;^) so I don't know what he thinks!

    Most people who make free software what it is can't do that and never have been able to. That hasn't really hurt free software much.

    Like I said above, as free software becomes more business like, it will hurt!

    But if he starts claiming that he's doing it for the good of the community*, I'm not going to be happy, because I'm part of that community and it does me no good. And if other people start claiming that he's doing it for the good of the communtiy, I'll get really pissed off. Especially if those people own shares in Linux companies.

    Well, maybe not the good of the community, but for the good of Linux itself. Linux was started by Linus, and he still wants control of it, in all aspects. I don't blame him. Disclaimer: I don't really own Linux stock, but I do own Andover (So I guess I own Slashdot!).

    I've got more hobbies and interests than programming and computers. If people want to make it all about trademarks and IPO's and what have you I'll spend more time sailing and cooking, and less time writing free software. No big deal. Either that or I'll go back to the world of Windows shareware, which is a whole lot less bitchy and is starting to produce better software.

    Well don't pay attention to what others do. I write code because I like to. It's not just a hobby to me, I like to get more involved. I also have several other hobbies, but this is one that challenges me intellectually. I don't think the "slash dot mob" will leave out someone that is doing something that they believe in.

    Steven Rostedt
  • Re:It's always good... by gmhowell (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @05:03AM
  • Re:Speaking of trademarks and linux... by Lowther (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @05:03AM
  • Re:Thank You (TM) by AndyElf (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @05:06AM
  • Re:Reassuring, but by nevets (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @05:06AM
  • Play on words, etc by Uruk (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @05:07AM
  • Re:whatever. by TurboJustin (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @05:10AM
  • Re:What a bunch of sheep by macguges (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @05:10AM
  • Re:Cybersquatting laws require proof of bad faith by jdwtiv (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @05:10AM
  • Re:Question about www.linux.com by TurboJustin (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @05:11AM
  • Re:Unfortunately, he's right by MartinB (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @05:11AM
  • Re:I'm confused, what about NASDAQ ticker symbols? by elixir (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @05:13AM
  • Re:Thank You (TM) by CormacJ (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @05:14AM
  • What about linux.com? by Quack1701 (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @05:16AM
  • Re:Reassuring, but by grumpy_geek (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @05:17AM
  • Re:Question about www.linux.com by sanderb (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @05:17AM
  • Re:Let law determine what's "acceptable" by aozilla (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @05:18AM
  • Re:Unfortunately, he's right by Our Man In Redmond (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @05:18AM
  • Re:Reassuring, but by Tilde~ (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @05:27AM
  • But how would we know it was him? by Paul Crowley (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @05:30AM
  • by MattMann (102516) on Wednesday January 19 2000, @05:35AM (#1359243)
    IANAL, but if I were Linus I would be a little careful about what I said. As he himself said, intent is important, but perhaps not in the way he meant it.

    Intent is important to the law, and to judges who really frown on people pretending to have intent. As an example, you can't sue someone just to test and see whether a law is valid. You must actually have "standing" to sue, as an entity who has actually been affected by a law. For trademarks, much of the purpose and the design of the remedies is to prevent economic harm. If Linus is giving the name away widely, where's the harm in other people using the name? What are the damages?

    Trademarks can be legally lost, as he points out, by failure to police them. But for more reasons too, for failure to use them in actual trade, for failure to use them a way that gives them a distinct meaning, etc. I'd recommend that he come up with a meaning, something like "it's for free and open source, and that's ironclad" if that works legally, and I'd recommend that he not say, "I'm only doing this because I have to, I'd really rather give it away" because he might. IANAL, of course.

    I wish the FSF and other interested parties would come up with GPL equivalents for other kinds of IP:

    • Patents held by the FSF and licensed only to free and open sourcers, or

    • Trademarks that are usable only for free and open products

    • combinations of IP tied together:
      this copyrighted source code work is free to be copied, but may only be distributed under and free and open trademarks
      You wanna call it Red Hat? OK, but I can call my copy Red Hat too, since that's what you say it's called.
  • Re:Interesting, informative. by stevew (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @05:37AM
  • Re:Unfortunately, he's right by purp (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @05:40AM
  • Re:Linus Cannot "Censor" by ANTI (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @05:43AM
  • Red elf cuts off TROLLS head by grumpy_geek (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @05:47AM
  • Re:Cybersquatting laws require proof of bad faith by rcade (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @05:47AM
  • Re:Reassuring, but by John Whitley (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @05:50AM
  • Re:Play on words, etc by jquiroga (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @05:51AM
  • What a strange world this is... by boessu (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @05:52AM
  • American isn't the only English by evilandi (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @05:56AM
  • Linus is a great writer. by Danborg (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @05:58AM
  • Re:It's always good... by cruise (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @05:59AM
  • Re:Reassuring, but by WNight (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @06:04AM
  • My rant on how /.ies view Trademark by Trunt (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @06:06AM
  • Re:Reassuring, but by On Lawn (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @06:08AM
  • List of TM's ? by petchema (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @06:09AM
  • Apples and oranges, Rob by Scurrilous Knave (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @06:10AM
  • Re:At least Linus explained the situation! by WNight (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @06:10AM
  • Re:I knew the bride... by SLOfuse (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @06:16AM
  • Re:American isn't the only English by TheCarp (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @06:19AM
  • Re:futile, indeed by HiThere (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @06:20AM
  • Re:Reassuring, but by nlvp (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @06:22AM
  • lynux.com WARNING: JavaScript Blackhole by jra (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @06:24AM
  • Re:Reassuring, but by dillon_rinker (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @06:25AM
  • Re:Linus Cannot "Censor" by TheCarp (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @06:26AM
  • Bogosity versus fraud by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @06:28AM
  • Re:Reassuring, but by Jon Peterson (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @06:30AM
  • OK, now what about LinuxOne? by YuppieScum (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @06:31AM
  • Re:Trademark law by LordofWinterfell (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @06:37AM
  • Re:But how would we know it was him? by jovlinger (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @06:38AM
  • Mr. Torvalds as an example... by BlackHawk (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @06:38AM
  • Re:It was SeriousDomains.com by Zalini (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @06:38AM
  • Re:Play on words, etc by jovlinger (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @06:40AM
  • Re:Reassuring, but by Jon Peterson (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @06:43AM
  • SeriousDomains still owns the names. by Foochar (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @06:44AM
  • Common sense and guardianship. by malkavian (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @06:55AM
  • Trademark administered by Linux International by Eric Green (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @06:57AM
  • Re:what about LinuxMall.com? by Eric Green (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @07:07AM
  • Re:Trademark administered by Linux International by jquiroga (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @07:14AM
  • Fraudulent behavior and LinuxOne by Eric Green (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @07:18AM
  • Re:Speaking of trademarks and linux... by bmetzler (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @07:24AM
  • Linux International by Eric Green (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @07:24AM
  • Re:Question about www.linux.com by st.n. (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @07:31AM
  • Way to go Linus!!! by RedInk (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @07:36AM
  • OT: thanks! by Kool Moe (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @07:38AM
  • Re:What a bunch of sheep by aturley (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @07:45AM
  • Re:Unfortunately, he's right by Silver A (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @07:52AM
  • Re:intellectual property by bero-rh (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @07:55AM
  • Tricky by Esperandi (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @08:12AM
  • A real class act by Francisco d'Aconia (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @08:20AM
  • Re:Unfortunately, he's right by Esperandi (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @08:23AM
  • Re:Reassuring, but by yarmond (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @08:24AM
  • Re:Fraudulent behavior and LinuxOne by um... Lucas (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @09:35AM
  • Re:What are the different marks? by FreeJacker (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @09:41AM
  • Re:I'm confused, what about NASDAQ ticker symbols? by um... Lucas (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @10:06AM
  • "Perl" is not trademarked by Larry Wall by Zach Frey (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @10:20AM
  • Metamoderate! by PapaZit (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @11:06AM
  • Bare-assed cheek! by ralphclark (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @12:07PM
  • Re:OK, now what about LinuxOne? by Silver A (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @12:09PM
  • Re:At least Linus explained the situation! by Robert S Gormley (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @12:17PM
  • Re:Reassuring, but by Robert S Gormley (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @12:17PM
  • Re:Way to go Linus!!! by Robert S Gormley (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @12:23PM
  • Let's Wait And See by SeriousDomains (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @12:29PM
  • Re:intellectual property by MattMann (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @01:16PM
  • Re:I meant Linus not Linux!!! by matty (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @02:08PM
  • Linuxbabes.com by kasparov (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @02:08PM
  • CENSOR this. by kir (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @03:13PM
  • Nice formatting by bobalu (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @03:47PM
  • Re:intellectual property by Chandon Seldon (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @03:53PM
  • other mark in yours by bobalu (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @03:56PM
  • Re:intellectual property by MattMann (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:26PM
  • Other trademarks with "Linux" in the name. by hangdog (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:29PM
  • yes... by The Queen (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:47PM
  • Linus Explains Linux Trademark Issues by rlb (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:49PM
  • "Linus, I AM your father!" by gad_zuki! (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @04:57PM
  • Re:Could be read differently... by Mark J Tilford (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @05:03PM
  • Re:[OT] Re:Thank You (TM) by odaiwai (Score:2) Wednesday January 19 2000, @05:06PM
  • Re:I'm confused, what about NASDAQ ticker symbols? by Super_Frosty (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @06:01PM
  • Pursuing trademark misuse can be embarrassing... by arachno (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @06:21PM
  • Can LinuxOne's IPO be stopped? by Deven (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @07:38PM
  • Re:whatever. by consumer (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @08:34PM
  • Re:Could be read differently... by JamesKPolk (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @08:55PM
  • Re:"Linus, I AM your father!" by notsoanonymouscoward (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @09:04PM
  • Re:Unfortunately, he's right by kms1 (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @10:22PM
  • The old story 'bout power and corruption? by guran (Score:1) Thursday January 20 2000, @12:46AM
  • Re:I'm confused, what about NASDAQ ticker symbols? by jazman (Score:1) Thursday January 20 2000, @12:52AM
  • Re:Let's Wait And See by frost22 (Score:1) Thursday January 20 2000, @03:43AM
  • Re:Unfortunately, he's right by Our Man In Redmond (Score:1) Thursday January 20 2000, @05:43AM
  • Re:Speaking of trademarks and linux... by Lowther (Score:1) Thursday January 20 2000, @06:58AM
  • mylinux.com by Frodo (Score:2) Thursday January 20 2000, @07:52AM
  • Shouting... or not listening in the first place by SeriousDomains (Score:1) Thursday January 20 2000, @05:52PM
  • Independent Committee unlikely Part 1 of 3 by SeriousDomains (Score:1) Thursday January 20 2000, @05:59PM
  • The Stranger and the Gold fields Part 2 of 3 by SeriousDomains (Score:1) Thursday January 20 2000, @06:03PM
  • One small vein ... one giant leap Part 3 of 3 by SeriousDomains (Score:1) Thursday January 20 2000, @06:26PM
  • Conflict of interests? by SeriousDomains (Score:1) Thursday January 20 2000, @07:10PM
  • Re:Speaking of trademarks and linux... by bmetzler (Score:1) Friday January 21 2000, @04:39AM
  • 67 replies beneath your current threshold.
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